Curse

Haggis of Doom · Jun 09, 2011, 02:00 PM // 14:00

^That's why people usually use Expert Focus in the build, not Read the Wind.

Xiaquin · Jun 09, 2011, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veldan

To all the people that say rangers don't run out of energy: you're doing something wrong. I used to vanquish with a prepared shot build (I think it was pepared shot, sundering/penetrating, i am the strongest, read the wind, triple shot, dwarven stability, lightning reflexes), and even then with the energy gain of the elite, I ran out of energy.

The only reason I was running it is that I had consumables to get +1 stats, so I had 17 expertise, which made 10 energy attacks go to 3. 16 expertise wasn't enough. Oh I was also using a zealous bow in combat, and a non-zealous set out of combat.

That is probably because PS alone isn't enough. Either switch to Marksman's Wager or Expert's Focus. Zealous won't up for much since you lose a pip, that's really most effective with multi-arrow attacks that create a net gain. You're overloaded with PvE skills (triple shot, why?) and not nearly making up for your costs. Expertise is only effective to a point, you shouldn't need to run higher than 14.

wesman · Jun 10, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

cant remember how to make the skill pick thingys so il just write out what im using

13 marksman 16 expertise

Triple shot, PA, SA, Prep shot, Needling shot, Expert focus, battle standard of honor. last spot can be filled with IAtS or w/e but im not a huge fan of that skill, would rather bring SY for party support or asuran scan.

I have heros bring favorable wind and brutal weapon/splinter depending on what im in the mood for, aoe or single target.

master of damage says i get 160 dps spike and average 80 dps over 40 seconds. im pretty pleased with this so far =o

master of healing died before she could heal/prot herself xD

no energy problems at all with 16 expertise and expert focus + prep shot

Urcscumug · Jun 11, 2011, 09:03 AM // 09:03

It's a pretty classic and solid build.

Here's another trick you could try instead of EBSoH: go secondary Ele, take an elemental damage bow (fire, cold or lightning) and the corresponding Conjure spell, plus Glyph of Elemental Power.

Set your attributes to 10+4 Expertise, 11+1 Marks and 10 in the element of damage. Reasoning: 16 over 14 Expertise does not make much of a difference; anything over 12 invested in a physical weapon attribute also makes very little difference; and the Glyph will boost your element from 10 to 12.

This has potential higher return than EBSoH because EBSoH at the highest Vanguard rank only adds +15 and is ward-dependant, whereas Conjure does +17 at r12.

You can also do other tricks, such as speccing in Fire and slapping Mark of Rodgort on foes before you start pelting them down -- this will add Burning into the mix. If you combine it with multi-target shots you get a regular campfire party.

Wielder Of Magic · Jun 11, 2011, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

It's a pretty classic and solid build.

Here's another trick you could try instead of EBSoH: go secondary Ele, take an elemental damage bow (fire, cold or lightning) and the corresponding Conjure spell, plus Glyph of Elemental Power.

Set your attributes to 10+4 Expertise, 11+1 Marks and 10 in the element of damage. Reasoning: 16 over 14 Expertise does not make much of a difference; anything over 12 invested in a physical weapon attribute also makes very little difference; and the Glyph will boost your element from 10 to 12.

This has potential higher return than EBSoH because EBSoH at the highest Vanguard rank only adds +15 and is ward-dependant, whereas Conjure does +17 at r12.

You can also do other tricks, such as speccing in Fire and slapping Mark of Rodgort on foes before you start pelting them down -- this will add Burning into the mix. If you combine it with multi-target shots you get a regular campfire party.

except that elemental damage gets reduced by a lot in HM, meaning you just nullified your damage output.
+4 expertise means you use a superior rune which gives you -75 health for a barely noticable effect when compared to 10+1+2 or even 10+1+1 as the trade off is not worth it in this particular case.

Mark of rodgort does not get reduced expertise cost, so that 15 energy gone for an effect thats kinda meh.

last: glyph of elemental power is rubbish in pve to begin with, let alone on a ranger, that devotes one skill slot to a crap skill to give a barely noticable +2 boost.

in short: it does not outdamage ebsoh.
probably not even in NM, let alone HM ( which is the only mode worth playing these days anyway).
And do not forget: those worthless conjures require a hefty attribute investment to be effective, ebsoh does not, freeing up a lot of attribute points.

Kunder · Jun 11, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

except that elemental damage gets reduced by a lot in HM, meaning you just nullified your damage output.

Incorrect, conjures are armor ignoring. Whether something is elemental has nothing to do with whether it ignores armor or not.

Xiaquin · Jun 11, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Conjures have their issues. First, you need to wield an elemental weapon, accomplished either through skill conversion or sacrificing the bowstring. Second, being an enchantment spell it leaves itself open to strip/shatter, punishment and powerful interrupts.

Additionally, the question becomes: if you want to split into a third attribute, do you really pass on Wilderness Survival for Serpent's Quickness? The reason being, if you can reload/rebuff more quickly, it will be a better overall investment with no risk, including access to everything else in the WS line, should utility present itself, and still maintaining secondary options.

Wielder Of Magic · Jun 11, 2011, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Incorrect, conjures are armor ignoring. Whether something is elemental has nothing to do with whether it ignores armor or not.

you clearly did not properly read my post.
elemental damage gets reduced way more then physical damage.
in order to gain benefit from your conjure, your weapon needs the corresponding elemental mod, thus inflicting elemental damage, thus inflicting less damage then when you used physical damage.
not to mention that orders and whatnot would not trigger on elemental damage which makes it inferior to use anyway.

Urcscumug · Jun 11, 2011, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Wielder, you wouldn't be autoattacking with the bow, would you? You use attack skills, and the bonus damage on those is armor ignoring, so is the bonus from Conjure.

"15 energy gone for an effect thats kinda meh", are you talking about Burning? -7 HP degen/sec, and the only condition that affects spirits?

I wouldn't exactly call it meh. Also, Burning is not fire damage.

And I'm not sure what your beef is with Glyph of Elemental Power, on one hand you complain it's "just +2 rank" on the other you worry about point investment.

Granted, conjures have their issues, but it's a viable alternative, which is all I wanted to show. If you want an universal build, EBSoH is probably more up your alley. If you haven't aquired EBSoH yet or you want to tailor some elemental damage to a certain zone or foe, or want some specific synergy with the team, consider Conjure, that's all I'm saying.

Ximvotn · Jun 11, 2011, 06:59 PM // 18:59

15-16 expertise, random melee attacks and attribute set accordingly, more armor or health.

Xiaquin · Jun 11, 2011, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I'm lost with the responses of running 15-16 Expertise. There's no break point for 5 or 10e skills at either rank and skills see no meaningful returns. Not only that, but doesn't enemy AI consider health when selecting a target? Can someone show me where the payoff is?

Amy Awien · Jun 11, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

Set your attributes to 10+4 Expertise, 11+1 Marks and 10 in the element of damage.

11+3 and 10+2 nets +5 HP

But you don't need 14 in expertise, for all but 25E skills 13 is just as good under Expert Focus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

... elemental damage gets reduced way more then physical damage.

By what mechanic? The bonus damage from Conjures is armor ignoring and all damage calculation that I know of uses armor for (type specific) reduction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I'm lost with the responses of running 15-16 Expertise. There's no break point for 5 or 10e skills at either rank and skills see no meaningful returns.

Under Expert Focus there is a breakpoint on all e-costs of bow-attacks at Expertise = 15

Wielder Of Magic · Jun 11, 2011, 10:25 PM // 22:25

towards the points brought forward by Urcscumug:

you auto attack between using skills most of the time, else you lose quite a lot of dps.
about mark of rodgort: sure burning affects spirits, but killing them using another attack skill on your bar is more effective then burning something. I would rather even take "I am the strongest!" and we all know that skill is not that great to begin with.
Rodgort's is 15 energy, not a smart idea when you have 25 base energy, not even starting about conjures and the attack skills of choice.
It would be better to put mark of rodgort on a hero if you insist on using it.
my problem with the conjure all together is that you need a hefty attribute investment to see a good trade off in bonus damage.
Glyph of elemental power does not solve the attribute problem, simply because you need a skillslot for it.
there are so many other options to put in that slot that add more to your DPS or versatility then that glyph.
All that trouble to make a conjure somewhat useful.
Not to mention that you only need a few ranks to make ebsoh more powerful then a conjure with hefty investment.
personally I cannot believe its a viable alternative.
you are free however to show me calculations that prove me wrong.

in reaction to Amy Awien's post:

Perhaps I did not explain myself correctly, allow me to rephrase:
The mechanic I mean is the enemy armor.
In hardmode, enemy armor increases.
Their armor versus elemental damage increases more, and is higher, then their armor versus physical damage.
Therefor physical damage is more effective since you can also combine it with orders ( or if not using a bow soh).
the bonus damage might be armor ignoring, but everything else you throw in gets reduced. bonus damage alone won't kill things.

Mashiyu · Jun 11, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

In hardmode, enemy armor increases. correct.

Their armor versus elemental damage increases more, and is higher, then their armor versus physical damage. Incorrect. The only reason why elemental damage suffers more from HM is that elemental damage has no armor-ignoring component. Physical damage itself is reduced the same way like elemental damage

Therefor physical damage is more effective since you can also combine it with orders ( or if not using a bow soh). Correct, although you can combine SoH with elemental melee weapons.

the bonus damage might be armor ignoring, but everything else you throw in gets reduced. Correct. bonus damage alone won't kill things. Incorrect. armor-ignoring bonus damage is the only killer in HM.

Fix'd your half-truths.

Edit: To be clear: Physical damage is better than elemental (because of Orders, Barbs, MoP) but surely not because armor against elemental damage is higher than against physical.

Kunder · Jun 12, 2011, 05:39 AM // 05:39

If anything vs physical armor should be higher on average, minus exceptions such as fire vs destroyers. Something like 1/3-1/2 of all enemy groups contain at least a few warriors, rangers are much less common.

Wielder Of Magic · Jun 12, 2011, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashiyu

Fix'd your half-truths.

Edit: To be clear: Physical damage is better than elemental (because of Orders, Barbs, MoP) but surely not because armor against elemental damage is higher than against physical.

I understand most of your points, and for most of them I stand corrected.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Yet I would like to bring a few more thing to the table.
Perhaps I am wrong, but in that case I would like to know what mistake I made within my reasoning.

It is correct that elemental damage has no armor ignoring component, but most enemies do actually have higher armor versus elemental sources of damage ( if I can trust the armor levels that the wiki states that is).
Few exceptions ofcourse like the mentioned destroyers.

On the point of bonus damage:
I agree that armor ignoring damage is the way to go, but only if you can deliver a big amount of it in a short amount of time ( like keystone/e-surge for example). However, in the mentioned example of the bow, you only get the armor ignoring damage from the conjure. lets say you went totally crazy with investing attribute points, and have 17 ( random number here) bonus damage from your conjure spell.
But your normal damage gets reduced.
so thats 17+ reduced elemental damage.
Probably below 40 damage, likely even below 30.
Even with triple shot you would only have 17x3 + 3 shots that already get reduced by 25% at max rank+ further reducing from the elemental mod ( talking about the average hardmode monster here).

So, in short:
I agree with most of the points that you corrected in my post, but would like to have your ideas about the things I just brought forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

If anything vs physical armor should be higher on average, minus exceptions such as fire vs destroyers. Something like 1/3-1/2 of all enemy groups contain at least a few warriors, rangers are much less common.

the reason that rangers are less common in human groups is a totally different discussion that has to do with lack of aoe and other damage sources, yet I do not see how that is relevant for this discussion.

Amy Awien · Jun 12, 2011, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

the bonus damage might be armor ignoring, but everything else you throw in gets reduced. bonus damage alone won't kill things.

Ok,that explains where your statement was coming from.

But you are mistaken about the damage, I believe. The base (physical) damage is meaningless, against 100+ AL it is the bonuses that kill. The (presumed?) difference between the increase in physical/elemental armor increase in HM is even smaller. But I'll check it out to see what the actual difference is, if any.

But an elemental string excludes vampiric strings as well as physical damage buffs such as Barbs and Mark of Pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

However, in the mentioned example of the bow, you only get the armor ignoring damage from the conjure.

Plus bonus damage from skill, preparation and things like EBSoH.

Increased armor levels in HM reduce your base arrow damage to 40~50%, at best, higher char-levels reduce the critical hit chance, which reduces your base-damage even further.

Wielder Of Magic · Jun 12, 2011, 02:16 PM // 14:16

that is mostly correct, however the point of the entire discussion was the claim that in a situation of conjure vs ebsoh conjure has the same viability damage wise, a statement I am trying to prove wrong.
Its a situation in which you use either the conjure, or the ward, not both at the same time.

Haggis of Doom · Jun 12, 2011, 03:40 PM // 15:40

If you want to fit conjure into a build with EBSoH you can. If you're considering which to take, then EBSoH easily wins.

However, a point in favor of conjure: your build isn't fixed. For instance, if you know you're fighting Titans, you'd use Conjure Frost. Most of the time, the enemy's armor vs the element you take is equal or less than their armor vs physical, if you know how to adapt to the zone.

My main beef with conjures is that they are long recharging and easily stripped. If I wanted to babysit enchantments I wouldn't be playing my ranger.

Kegen · Jun 12, 2011, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

except that elemental damage gets reduced by a lot in HM, meaning you just nullified your damage output.

Is there a link confirming this and showing the numbers? I checked an example enemy (Ice Golem) and didn't see any increased armor stats. I also looked at the Hard Mode page and the Armor Rating page for any mention of it.

Maybe I'm skimming unintentionally or just looking in the wrong spots.
I wouldn't be surprised by increase in armor rating, I just wanted to see the increase of elemental armor vs regular armor for myself and then use that to work on my builds.

Thanks and sorry if I was just blind.